Pulled eFingers:

Steve —

The purpose of the law (of the old testament, which you cited a portion of) was never to coerce anybody into being a good person. The purpose was to show us how much we needed the grace and mercy of God. (Romans 5:12-21)

I'm going to try to summarize what I believe, and what the Southern Baptist church teaches.

You have to start with whether or not you believe in a higher being (ie. God) that created the universe. There is plenty of evidence for this. It just depends on whether or not you want to see it. Look... let's say you were walking down the street and you found a beautiful gold pocket watch. You opened it up and were amazed by the intricacy of the gears and springs, and how everything in the watch worked perfectly to keep accurate time. Would you think that somehow a few lumps of metal came together, and accidentally formed a perfect watch? No way. Your first thought would be that a skilled craftsman had taken great care to create such a thing. I know this is a simple analogy, but it makes the point that there is evidence of God.

If there is a God that created the universe, then he created us as well, and he has a plan for how he wants the universe, and us to serve him. We cannot make up God's will for ourselves anymore than we can make up the laws of physics. You may not believe in gravity, but you will feel it's effects if you choose to jump off a building. We cannot decide for ourselves what God wants, or how he wants us to live. We must listen to God and trust that His ways are higher than our own. (1 Cor. 2:15-16)

Now let's talk more about the law and grace. As I mentioned earlier, the purpose of the law is to show us how much we need God. This is where Jesus comes in. Christians believe that Jesus was the only person to ever live a perfect life. This means that he never sinned. This is only possible becuase Jesus is the son of God. We believe he is the living word of God in the flesh. In essence, God came down from heaven to live as a man, and suffered all the same temptations as man. (John 1:1-34)

When Jesus was teaching, he was asked what is the greatest commandment in the law? His answer had 2 parts. First, to love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Second, to love all other people as you love yourself. (Matt. 22:34-40) Jesus warned us not to be judgemental of others, or we would be judged by the same standards. When Jesus was crucified, he took on the punishment that we all deserve. Yes, this is highly symbolic, and God made it that way so we can understand the depth of his grace.

Now, if you try to please God by just being a good person, then you are rejecting Jesus' sacrifice. You are saying "I can be good enough on my own, so that God will accept me without having to rely on his grace and mercy." You are essentially saying that you are just as perfect as Jesus was. This is an impossible standard for any man. You can't even go one day without thinking mean spirited thoughts about another person, getting angry in traffic, being judgemental of others, etc. Even the good things you try to do can end up having unintended negative consequences for other people. History is full of examples.

When you try to be a good person, you are putting yourself under the law all over again. Furthermore, you are trying to set the standard yourself for how everybody else should live their lives, instead of looking to God for the standard.

This is how false teachers of the law used to teach. They would tell people about all the rules they had to follow every day in order to go to heaven. Hog wash! (1 Tim. 1:3-17)

You were right when you said that arguing religion is tough. There is nothing another person can say or do to make you believe anything. That's why everybody ought to try to find out for themselves. You know that I'm not a religious fanatic. I don't go around preaching, or trying to "save" people. But, I will tell people what I believe if they ask me. If you want to read somebody who is more eloquent, check out C.S Lewis' "Mere Christianity". Of course, I also recommend reading the Bible (get a version you can actually understand, like the NIV), starting with the new testament, and praying.

G.Ma —

I enjoyed reading both sides of this topic. Personally, I really don't know if homosexuality is a matter of choice or one of being born that way. There has been homosexuality as long as there has been life. Look at the Roman history. Sometimes I think it's because they don't want to commit to the opposite sex. (It's really hard work and a lot of compromises to have a successful marriage.) I understand that homosexual couples love also, but I really love a lot of people, but I don't have to have sex with them to show it.

Eric —

"[...]let's say you were walking down the street and you found a beautiful gold pocket watch. You opened it up and were amazed by the intricacy of the gears and springs, and how everything in the watch worked perfectly to keep accurate time. Would you think that somehow a few lumps of metal came together, and accidentally formed a perfect watch? No way. Your first thought would be that a skilled craftsman had taken great care to create such a thing."

I'll give you this - the analogy is indeed way too simple. I'll also give you that the obvious solution is the existence of a craftsman. Then again, the obvious solution to the solar system is that the Earth is the center of it.

You should read up on the Anthropic Principle. In short, the reason the universe is so finely tuned is because if it weren't so finely tuned, we would not be around to ask why it's so finely tuned.

Think about a universe with a slightly higher gravitational constant. Galaxies would collapse, solar systems wouldn't have time to form, Earth would never be, and there'd be no life. The universe would collapse. A new universe would begin. This could continue on to infinity, until finally some universe came about that had just the right ingredients for life. Only then could consciousness ask why the universe is so finely tuned.

That is, the probability of anything happening, including the highly unlikely event of Steve Francis knocking down a J, given infinite chances is exactly 100%.

I'm not saying the Anthropic Principle is correct. Nor will I argue creationism is correct. But I will say that anyone can argue creationism vs. probability, and neither party can be proved correct or incorrect.

Eric —

"I understand that homosexual couples love also, but I really love a lot of people, but I don't have to have sex with them to show it."

Homosexuals are like heterosexuals. Some have sex, some don't. That makes marriage all the more important to the ones that want to abstain.

Steve —

Did you understand what I was trying to say to you about grace and forgiveness vs. sin and death?

If you don't believe in sin, then is it a sin to kill somebody? Is everything permissable to God? Everything can be forgiven, but that doesn't mean that everything is ok.

Eric —

"Did you understand what I was trying to say to you about grace and forgiveness vs. sin and death?"

I guess not, since your original reply did not mention forgiveness or death.

"If you don't believe in sin, then is it a sin to kill somebody?"

Not a sin. But it is wrong.

"Is everything permissable to God?"

I believe so. I think that once the jig is up, my spirit will be in the same place as everyone else's.

Steve —

I would definitely say you are not a Christian, in that case. If you believe in God at all, you owe it to yourself to find out what he wants. You have invented what you want God to be in your own mind.

I don't think you read my explaination very carefully, or looked up any of the scripture I refernced. To debate something means that you address the other persons issues.

" I think that once the jig is up, my spirit will be in the same place as everyone else's."

I'm just curious what you are basing this belief on.

I can say that my life has changed dramatically since I became christian, a few years ago. I have been blessed with a lot of really great friends, an awesome girlfriend, and lots of opportunities. I used to be a very negative person. I know you understand me, because we grew up around a lot of negativity and you lived with it as much as I did. A lot of the good things that have happenned in my life are a result of the change in attitude that God brought about in me. As much as I tried to change on my own, I could never succeed until I asked God to change me.

You may say this is all psycoligical, but it's hard to explain until you have experienced it.

As far as both our beliefs go, I guess the only thing we would agree on is that the only thing you can take with you are the relationships you make here on earth.

BTW, grace and mercy = forgiveness in my initial post.

Eric —

I consider myself a Christian. However, I refuse to say, or believe, that someone will burn because they don't follow the Bible. For example, I refuse to think somebody will burn because they happen to be gay. That's the difference between what you believe and what I believe.

"I don't think you read my explaination very carefully, or looked up any of the scripture I refernced. To debate something means that you address the other persons issues."

The burden is on you to state your case, then provide evidence to support the case. You can't simply point at the evidence. What exactly do you mean by "grace and forgiveness vs. sin and death." Perhaps I'm stupid and can't understand as well as you can. But I hope you'll try anyway.

I'm happy that you're happy. Life sucks when your life is not happy. Imagine if there was a law that prohibited you from doing what makes you happy.

Steve —

First, I want to say to anybody reading this that this is a friendly discussion. I don't mean to offend or insult anybody. Also, a lot of my friends here in Houston are following this discussion, so I know that makes Eric happy.

Back to business...

Eric, I don't see how you can think of yourself as a Christian. If you don't believe in sin, then Christ died for nothing! Not only did Jesus believe in sin, but he went around forgiving people for their sins! (Luke 7:44-50) Now, nobody can go around forgiving people of their sins, unless they think they are God. So, you either have to believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, or that he was some lunatic who went around believing and telling people he was God. Christians believe that Jesus was God. That is the very definition of being a Christian.

Jesus is either God, or just a crazy man. There is no middle ground. Which side of the fence are you on? If you still proclaim yourself a Christian, then how do you choose to ignore Jesus' very words... the words of God.

Now, then... I think I gave a very good explaination of what I believe in my first post. I wish you would read it over more carefully, and read the scriptures I referenced. Please read the NIV Bible. The KJV is like reading Greek.

But, I will break it down for you further.

1) Mankind has had a sinful nature ever since Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden.

2) God gave the law to man as a gift, to show us that we are all sinners, and need to ask God's forgiveness for our sins.

3) Jesus never sinned, and was crucified so we could see the depth of God's grace. Jesus took on the punishment for our sins, so we can live under God's grace as long as we admit we are sinners and ask for forgiveness.

Now then, let's look at your belief that "[all our spirits will be in the same place when the jig is up.]"

If that is true, then why are we even here? God could have all of us in heaven right now, if that's what he wanted. We are here becuase we have been given free will. We can choose to follow God, or we can reject him and live life our own way. This doesn't mean we have to be perfect. God knows we can't be perfect, and he will forgive us when we make mistakes, if we ask him to. God is after our hearts.

G.Ma —

Im enjoying your debate. It all boils down to having faith and therefore having peace of mind. and we all know right from wrong. Love your neighbor as thyself. Of course, if you don't love yourself that's where the problems start. I agree, if you ask God to forgive you, he will.

Stacey —

Wow, you guys should be lawyers!! I must say, though, that I have to agree with Steve. If killing someone is not a sin, then why the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or any of the other ones? Just because you accept Jesus into your heart doesn't mean you get a free ticket to sin.

Eric —

Steve, I'm gonna have to respond back to you later.

Stacey,

"If killing someone is not a sin, then why the commandment 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' or any of the other ones?"

Commandments are like laws. They are an agreement between all the people who choose to follow the commandments. Just like the laws we agree upon as citizens of this nation.

Without laws and commandments there would be chaos. That's why we have commandments and laws.

You might be asking, "why should I bother to follow the law if there is no higher punishment?" The answer is, because you've entered into a social contract with every other citizen of this nation. You agree to follow the laws, and in turn every other citizen agrees to follow the laws.

Stacey —

I just don't understand your concept of a world without sin. If there's no sin, then why did Jesus go through what He did? I live my life as a "good person" but I can't go through the day without sinning. But thanks to Jesus, my sins are paid for. Otherwise I'd go to Hell after I died. If there were no sin, then everyone would be perfect.

Steve —

Right on, sister!

Villi —

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Villi —

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